Supporting students with disabilities Transcript 30 August 2006

From SimTeach

Supporting students with disabilities

Facilitated by Kate Deibel (Kate Spatula)

30 August 2006 at Trotsky's in Second Life

Attended by (or at least those who spoke at least once):

• Ali Andrews
• Austn Soyer
• Bryan Mnemonic
• buridan Simon
• Corwin Carillon
• Dudeney Ge
• Ellie Brewster
• Farley Scarborough
• Gus Plisskin
• Janor Slichter
• Krisjohn Twin
• otakup0pe Neumann
• Painter Maxwell
• Pathfinder Linden
• Rubaiyat Shatner

Summary

This meeting was about discussing accessibility issues within Second Life, with a particular focus on how to best accommodate students with disabilities when SL is used for educational purposes. To motivate the discussion, Kate offered up scenarios involving students with disabilities. One example that motivated a lot of discussion involved the accessibility of SL to users with visual difficulties.

Throughout the discussion, several themes and questions evolved repeatedly:

• The user interface and software of SL does not currently allow much freedom in regards to how it is manipulated (e.g., mouse versus keyboard). The UI is currently not JAWS- compliant as well. The use of XML-based user interfaces in future versions could provide great flexibility for tuning the software to a user's needs.

• The vast amount of visual information in SL is currently inaccessible to residents with visual disabilities. The addition of metadata (like the ALT and LONGDESC tags used for images in HTML) was suggested. While enforcing the inclusion of helpful metadata is tricky, it was agreed that educational builds at least should adhere to a standard.

• Regarding accommodations for a student with disabilities in SL, it was suggested that equivalent RL practices could be applied. A blind student might have a companion to assist him or her. This led to an interesting question regarding whether the companion or the student or both would have avatars in SL.

• Avatar appearance and disabilities was also discussed. As disability can be a part of one's identity, a resident might choose to reflect that in their avatar. Various questions arose about the ability of SL's current appearance system's ability to express disabilities, the difficulty of a user implementing such approaches, and what the impact on other SL residents would be upon meeting an SL avatar with a disability.

Transcript

Kate Spatula: thanks everyone for coming. i see a lot of names that i don't know, so let's start with introductions

Kate Spatula: in particular, mention any interest in disabilities and education

Kate Spatula: i'm a computer science graduate student at the University of Washington. my tehsis work is on supporting adult learners with reading disbailites through computer technologies

Pathfinder Linden: my background is all on www.pathfinderlinden.com for those of you I haven't met. :)

Dudeney Ge: I'm an educational technologist working mostly in distance teacher training, mostly with Moodle

Janor Slichter: I'm currently a programmer, but have graduate and field experience in education, hoping to get back into the field, specifically using SL

Ali Andrews: I work for northern Illinois University developing online education and if we use SL for part of that experience i am sure I will have to address accessibility issues

Austn Soyer: I'm an Educational technologist at a community college in Nebraska,, work with distance video and online learning

Farley Scarborough: As an "instructional web designer," I support faculty doing distance learning and am the go-to guy at my U for Web accessibility.

Krisjohn Twin: I'm the IT Manager at a "Pathway" (International) college in Western Australia. I'm looking at SL as a business development opportunity for the company, particularly for distance education, possibly across our group's colleges throughout the world.

Ellie Brewster: I teach women's studies, also developing online courses.

Kate Spatula: austn... can you click the blue object above the tables here... it's a chat recorder

Kate Spatula: hello rubaiyat... thans for offering the land

Austn Soyer: ok think i got it

Please try again.

Rubaiyat Shatner: my pleasure, sled is always welcome here

Kate Spatula: thanks

buridan Simon: i'm jeremy hunsinger... i'm an assistant professor, a ph.d. student, and several other things

buridan Simon: there's a wiki for more info

Kate Spatula: so, i usually start out a meeting like this by listing my biases. i'm actively involved in disability advocacy at my university and in the community. i myself also have several invisible disabilities

Kate Spatula: whoops... sorrry... computer froze for a sec

Kate Spatula: corwin, please touch the object floating above your head

Kate Spatula: that said, i tend to view all technology through an accessibility lens

Kate Spatula: although i believe that SL has a lot of promise, i feel that it has a way to go in terms of being accessible

Kate Spatula: please... don't everyone type at once

Pathfinder Linden: well, I'm very interested in things we might be able to do from LL's perspective to make SL more accessible

Pathfinder Linden: so please hit me with recommendations :)

Kate Spatula: LL?

Pathfinder Linden: Linden Lab

Kate Spatula: ah

Kate Spatula: it's been an acronym heavy day for me

Kate Spatula: to start, how many people here use SL for teaching?

Ali Andrews: I have 3 faculty from NIU using it this semester

buridan Simon: /hmm, i have biases, but they are mainly in standards compliance in websites, w3cai and such

Corwin Carillon: not yet but will be soon

Ali Andrews: but as suppliment not required

Dudeney Ge: Will be starting in September

Krisjohn Twin: I'm happy for us all to state our bias/perspective. My perspective on SLED is from a particularly practival point of view. I can't make new courses *about* SL, I'm trying to see if SL can be used for "normal" subjects, like accounting or managment...

buridan Simon: /i scheduled one class... for second life and virtual reference....

Kate Spatula: have anyone of you had an instance where a person with a disability, say visual issues, was involved in a class using SL?

Krisjohn Twin: ...and if our exisiting staff have any chance of coping. Which, since some of them can't even program a VCR, I don't hold out much hope for.

buridan Simon: /not that i know of

Ali Andrews: not yet

Gus Plisskin: Kate: Not visual issues, but I've build footpedals for those with carpal tunnel who can't use mouse buttons.

Kate Spatula: so that's one concern... the interface is very mouse-heavy on here, isn't it?

buridan Simon: /mouse heavy as compared to?

Ali Andrews: especially when building

Janor Slichter: more keyboard commands to drive menus and actions?

Gus Plisskin: yes, but SL needs mouse heavy. An alternative would be very tough

Janor Slichter: the way gestures work in chat?

buridan Simon: i dunno, i find that i use the arrow keys a fair amount

buridan Simon: /and the tab

otakup0pe Neumann: Hello everyone. I know that lots of builders do just that

Kate Spatula: keep in mind that accessibility is not about making something work well for everyone.

otakup0pe Neumann: Rez a cube, and use tab/arrow keys / numpad for the specifics

Austn Soyer: sorry crashed

buridan Simon: /what would be nice is better proximity detection for friends and colleagues with audio cues.... so a friend approaches and a sound could get louder....

Rubaiyat Shatner: I think a big issue with accessibility is to somehow expose the data so that it can be read if it is text and translated if not

Kate Spatula: good point

otakup0pe Neumann: I have been looking quite heavily at voice / sound issues in SL

Corwin Carillon: if the cleint was JAWS compliant you would get some of the with HUDs buridan

Janor Slichter: Kate, are you referring to being able to add special functions, like with add-ins, to the client, to accomodate certain needs?

Kate Spatula: that's one approach that could be taken, or providing hooks for external software to use (like JAWS requires), or these could all be optiosn built in to SL

Ellie Brewster: how difficult would that be?

Krisjohn Twin: /brb

otakup0pe Neumann: I sense this is a direction that LL wants to move in... but i really have no idea

Farley Scarborough: JAWS access and keyboard access are both very standard on Windows apps

Kate Spatula: that depends on a lot of factors, elli

buridan Simon: /extension to the scripting language would be easiest

Pathfinder Linden: it's definitely a direction we are exploring

otakup0pe Neumann: You can do integration right now using the existing RPC commands in scripts

buridan Simon: /then you could let the community write the code

otakup0pe Neumann: Just it gets a little hairy

Gus Plisskin: It may be possible to script the UI given it's going to XML

otakup0pe Neumann: I was hoping you woudl say that Pathfinder ;)

Kate Spatula: there are also just aspects about the SL app itself

Farley Scarborough: So the programming isn't groundbreaking

Janor Slichter: httprequest as well

Gus Plisskin: custom UI for SL will be possible

Kate Spatula: here's one thing that i noticed with the interface right from the beginning. the fonts

otakup0pe Neumann: Yes. all hail XUI.

otakup0pe Neumann: I have noticed several things about the fonts.

Kate Spatula: i have issues with reading the fonts on here. i would love to be able to choose a different one

Farley Scarborough: And different size

buridan Simon: /the fonts seem to be machine related they perform different on different machines

Kate Spatula: (which could benefit, in estimate, 10-20% of the population according to statistics on visual stress)

Corwin Carillon: graphics card related

otakup0pe Neumann: yes any changes need to take into account the different operating systems.

otakup0pe Neumann: i sense that once the linux client becomes more stable, it will be very popular

otakup0pe Neumann: i hear it runs much smoother, thus allowing "older" hardware to work a touch better

Gus Plisskin: But there's no Quicktime, so you have to use external audio players, etc.

Kate Spatula: well, i don't want to get into a discussion of accessibility on linux.

otakup0pe Neumann: Exactly... once it's more stable ;)

Kate Spatula: :)

otakup0pe Neumann: No neither do I Kate, I'm just saying it can't be windows-centric.

Gus Plisskin: /geek mode: OFF :)

Farley Scarborough: lol

Kate Spatula: my powers! fading!

buridan Simon: /emacs....

otakup0pe Neumann: i mean there has to be at least one mac user here.

buridan Simon is a mac user

Ellie Brewster: me too

otakup0pe Neumann googles JAWS

Farley Scarborough raises hand

Dudeney Ge: I'd like to see audio integration - strikes me this is a big one

otakup0pe Neumann: Yes me as well dudeney. like i said i've been looking into it quite a bit

Kate Spatula: JAWS is a screen reader softawre that is the most popular accessibility tool available

otakup0pe Neumann: i have noticed it is a touch subject amongst residents actually !

otakup0pe Neumann: a very touchy subject.

buridan Simon: /mac does it better natively..

Farley Scarborough: what subject?

Dudeney Ge: I can't afford the 2000$ setup and 150$ per month that one product demands

otakup0pe Neumann: audio integration. voice that is.

Dudeney Ge: But something like Skype dies with Sl running at the same time

otakup0pe Neumann: yeah :(

buridan Simon: /anyone that wants voice can have voice... it is easy to do

Kate Spatula: so here's the difficult question, if you had a class where SL was a key facet, and one student was blind, what would you do?

otakup0pe Neumann: dudeney : what product is that ?

Gus Plisskin: A 2nd computer, perhaps an old one, is best for Skype

Farley Scarborough: Bingo, Kate

Rubaiyat Shatner: create teams

Ellie Brewster: seems to me that you'd have to get them a companion

Ellie Brewster: just as you do in a rl class

buridan Simon: /All of the students that i've had that were visually impaird had companion assigned anyway

Kate Spatula: so would they have an avatar on here or just the companion or both

Farley Scarborough: There are profesional describers we use in RL

buridan Simon: /of course... so did the atheletes... so...

Dudeney Ge: I'll dig it out Otakup0pe - the one languagelab are using

otakup0pe Neumann: that's a good question right there Kate.

Krisjohn Twin: @Kate: I just walked into this room, sat down at a pre-defined spot and started typing. How hard could that be to script for someone who is blind? Most of the 3D interface in SL is wasted.

buridan Simon: /it is true the 3d doesn't matter as much as proximity

Krisjohn Twin: Heck, an IRC bridge to this room would probably be more than enough to participate in this discussion.

Ellie Brewster: you can use sound files as cues. Tie them to the scenery

otakup0pe Neumann: also true Kris

Farley Scarborough: Ah, but the visual's... they aren't wasted on the blind.

otakup0pe Neumann: And scripting movement will get more interesting with libsl.

Farley Scarborough: Listen to an audio described movie

otakup0pe Neumann: :(

Kate Spatula: so let's consider this room. could we augment it to make it more accessible beyond just visual

otakup0pe Neumann: i hate it when they do that.

Kate Spatula: doh

Farley Scarborough: the visual description is very important

Gus Plisskin: Add more visual contrast

Kate Spatula: okay... i'll log this discussion the old fashioned way then

otakup0pe Neumann: Hehe ok.

Gus Plisskin: For the person who's visually-impaired, rather than blind

Ellie Brewster: what about using a different channel for viz impaired?

Gus Plisskin: with description? that'd work

otakup0pe Neumann: Do you mean chat channel Ellie ?

Ellie Brewster: yes

Krisjohn Twin: /I gotta go. If the meeting's still going in 20 minutes I should rejoin you from work.

Gus Plisskin: l8r Krisjohn

Farley Scarborough: bye Kris

buridan Simon: i think someone has an irc bridge

otakup0pe Neumann: there are several

otakup0pe Neumann: we have developed one (we being my company)

otakup0pe Neumann: and i knwo tehre is one with libsl

buridan Simon: /Actually i know irc, and im bridge

otakup0pe Neumann: and the #secondlife irc channel runs one

Kate Spatula: i'm loolking right now at pictures of some famous philosophers hanging on the walls. the environment could provide a list of tagged objects to the user

Kate Spatula: which would be useful to scripters as well

Corwin Carillon: I also have to go to work :( ... (kate, could you post to SLED about where the transcript will be?)

otakup0pe Neumann: kate i have been looking at that actually

otakup0pe Neumann: my company is in the process of developing a "hidden" metadata system for SL object

otakup0pe Neumann: uhh. hidden is a bad word.

otakup0pe Neumann: ubiquitous ? heh.

buridan Simon: /hah good luck with that... tagging perhaps, but object standard metadata...

Kate Spatula: the challenge, as it is in web accessibility, is making sure the data is provided

buridan Simon: /cidoc is a bugger

otakup0pe Neumann: maybe metadata is also a poor word ;)

buridan Simon: /metadata is the word... it means data about data

otakup0pe Neumann: I know. There are many kinds of metadata.

otakup0pe Neumann: And as we just saw, only so much room in a script.

buridan Simon: /yep

Kate Spatula: i'm sure i could force rubaiyat to tag Trotsky's, but what about *insert random place* here

buridan Simon: /we have confidence in your forceful personality kate

Farley Scarborough: I wonder, though. If a play or a movie might be a better metaphor for this environment than the Web.

otakup0pe Neumann: A play with no 4th wall is a perfect metaphor if oyu ask me

Kate Spatula: oooooh

Kate Spatula: me like

otakup0pe Neumann: and kate, good point again. tagging the whole grid is a daunting task =O

otakup0pe Neumann: let alone both grids !

otakup0pe Neumann: and having them all work together.

Pathfinder Linden: I think a unique thing about SL is that it really combines many preexisting mediums

Ali Andrews: but isn't it tagged already, in the edit window?

buridan Simon: /tagging is also an area where you will have a good number of people who vary and some who actively resistantly participate by tagging wrongly

otakup0pe Neumann: That's a idfferent kind of tagging Ali.

buridan Simon tags ali 'your it'

Pathfinder Linden: there's web-ish stuff in here. and video. and audio. and live performance theater. and written word.

otakup0pe Neumann: Heh.

otakup0pe Neumann: web-ish.

otakup0pe Neumann: and, well, metadata. just not of the type that we are discussing.

otakup0pe Neumann: and cubes. you can't forget the cubes.

buridan Simon: /i can see it now... 'and there is a cube' 'you walked into a cube'

Ali Andrews: how is it different? It can list the name, discription... it just needs to be done consistantly as we do when we build web pages

buridan Simon: 'everything is a cube'

otakup0pe Neumann: This is true Ali

otakup0pe Neumann: Consistency is the key.

Kate Spatula: there is a difference, ali.

Ali Andrews: so at least for our educational builds we can start a standard

otakup0pe Neumann: it's metadata ,but not strictly descriptive

otakup0pe Neumann: i wonder how many "objects" are around here.

Kate Spatula: web pages have a structure that supports the use of those descriptions. however, accessing just names and descriptions on here is fairly unstructured

otakup0pe Neumann: lack of consistency....

buridan Simon points out that there are standards, and it is better to attempt to conform to a standard than to create one anew

Bryan Mnemonic: does linden tag any objects with metadata at all?

Pathfinder Linden: not really, not in the sense you're thinking about

otakup0pe Neumann: object name, description, groups, that is all metadata

otakup0pe Neumann: but yeah. not too "descriptive"

otakup0pe Neumann: pathfinder : this is what we were talking about when we met with you and joe a few weeks ago

Kate Spatula: here's a related issue... avatakind of like all the image alt tags that say "image"

Pathfinder Linden: yes, I remember very well! :)

Kate Spatula: rs and disability. aside from pathfinder with his lack of a nose and rubaiyat's inability to store fat, none of our avatars really display signs of disability

Bryan Mnemonic: I wonder if that can be added to the "edit" build window so folks ban begin adding specific tags, or a limited number of them based on a drop down menu

Kate Spatula: doh... sorry

Kate Spatula: lost some text

Kate Spatula: here's another issue... avatars and disability

buridan Simon makes pathfinder a nice cup of tea and helps the panic go away

otakup0pe Neumann: haha kate

Pathfinder Linden strokes his moustache...o wait

Kate Spatula: going back to our blind student, would his avatar have a white cane an dsunglasses?

otakup0pe Neumann: kate : it's up to them

buridan Simon: /it would seem to me that identity is up to them

Dudeney Ge: Sorry folks - have to go - will catch up with the transcript in the morning

otakup0pe Neumann: enforcing somethign like that is certainly not the way to go

Farley Scarborough: by Dude

otakup0pe Neumann: bye dudeney, nice meeting you !

Bryan Mnemonic: for instance, we riright click on this couch, and when we click "more"perhaps there could be an additional tab

Dudeney Ge: Nice to meet you all too

Bryan Mnemonic: with metadata options

buridan Simon: /metadata that can be filled with 'arse' and related words

otakup0pe Neumann: yes.

otakup0pe Neumann: which is not a good thing

Farley Scarborough: Ah, but of course the blind student couldn't see where to click, so wouldn't have a mouse

Kate Spatula: i'm not saying to enforce avatar appearances, but consider the importance of avatar image to reflecting disabilitiy

otakup0pe Neumann: but at the same time, censorship is bad

Janor Slichter: aren't the metadata contents like any of the contents on the Contents tab?

buridan Simon: /but... on another level.. you would open a new market for metadata compliant merchandise perhaps

otakup0pe Neumann: heh the thought had crossed my mind

Janor Slichter: and metadata readers

Kate Spatula: an dreflecting identity

otakup0pe Neumann: my company will release our porduct open source

otakup0pe Neumann: that descision has already been made

Rubaiyat Shatner: Okay, I have to go too, got to catch a train.

otakup0pe Neumann: ugh spelling. =product=

Kate Spatula: good, otaku. let's just hope it's readable source

buridan Simon: /mmm spagetti

otakup0pe Neumann: hehe kate. i hope so as well. i like to think we have good developers =O

Farley Scarborough: By Rubaiyat

Bryan Mnemonic: bye

otakup0pe Neumann: bye rubaiyat !

otakup0pe Neumann: i love traines.

Ellie Brewster: damn. Rl calls.

Bryan Mnemonic: don't you hate that?

otakup0pe Neumann: Kate back to what you said....

otakup0pe Neumann: I honestly do not have much expereince with that topic

otakup0pe Neumann: do you think other avatars would requrie that visual cue ?

Kate Spatula: there are two sides ot the issue. one is whether other avtars need the cues, but then there's also the importance of digital identity and one's avatar image

buridan Simon hates the neighbor playing soccer upstairs worse

Pathfinder Linden: there was a recent paper about social cues and avatars in SL recently...

Farley Scarborough: To expand Kate's question... Many people with disabilities you can see in RL can go through SL without anyone knowing. Could someone who cant' see?

Pathfinder Linden roots around

buridan Simon: /url?

otakup0pe Neumann: i think it should be the option of the avatar in question

Kate Spatula: that's the point... are the avatar options enough to reflect some of these needs

otakup0pe Neumann: both sides really. does the blind student want to advertise that they are blind ?

otakup0pe Neumann: and do other avatars want those cues ?

buridan Simon doesn't know you are a dog

otakup0pe Neumann: identifyying themselves as blind to metadata enabled objects is another story

otakup0pe Neumann: buridan : actually i'm a marmoset, but that's ok

Pathfinder Linden: aha, here it is: http://www.stanford.edu/group/vhil/papers/second_life_nonverbal.pdf

Farley Scarborough: woof. oops

Kate Spatula: actually, they might want to advertise that they're blind, or in a wheelchair, etc. it's part of their identity and it's an issue of whether that person wants to express that and if they can express that

otakup0pe Neumann: exactly !

otakup0pe Neumann: but it's up to them.

Kate Spatula: RL example: i once roleplayed with a person who insisted that his elf cleric had a wheelchair built by gnomes

Farley Scarborough: It's only up to them if they can get about without anyone knowing.

Farley Scarborough: emphasis on CAN

otakup0pe Neumann: Yup.

otakup0pe Neumann: But i imagine that would help influence their descision. That being said, I really don't hav any RL experience to draw upon

Painter Maxwell: uh sorry i just teleported onto your head

Painter Maxwell: ahem

Painter Maxwell: my apologies

otakup0pe Neumann: haha that is a great example kate

buridan Simon: ali likes head teleports... it is why she comes into sl....

Kate Spatula: from a disability critical studies viewoint, SL has an extreme bias towards physical perfection and able-bodiness

Gus Plisskin: heh

buridan Simon: you just can't get that experience in rl

Ali Andrews: :P I was looking at the paper Path sent us and missed it

Gus Plisskin: Kate: There's movement by some toward more realistic avatars

otakup0pe Neumann: really ?

otakup0pe Neumann: that's silly if you ask me

buridan Simon: /there's a movement by others against realistic avatars

otakup0pe Neumann: i'm curious as to the reasoning behind it

buridan Simon: /there is a large anti-movement that are generally apathetic too

Farley Scarborough: What is more "realistic?'

otakup0pe Neumann: four legs good two legs bad

Gus Plisskin: more weight, less than perfect proportions

otakup0pe Neumann: oh wait.

Ali Andrews: well gang I am still at work and my family is wondering if I got lost, so I need to go. This was very interesting. Thanks Kate for organizing.

buridan Simon: thanks ali

otakup0pe Neumann: Nice meeting you Ali !

Austn Soyer: bye Ali

Farley Scarborough: Bye Ali

Kate Spatula: example: person born with thalidomide syndrome. such a person could be born with missing or half-formed limbs

Kate Spatula: would they want an avatar missing a leg or an arm?

buridan Simon: i've seen avatars like that

Kate Spatula had to look up thalidomide

Gus Plisskin: It's all personal choice, Kate. Some might

Farley Scarborough: John Hockenberry said he had qualms about whether to have is av in a wheel chair.

Kate Spatula: i should quit phrasing my questions as if they would want that. the question is how readily can they implement that choice

Kate Spatula: ooh... any citation on that farley?

Gus Plisskin: Kate: invisible prims could help with that

buridan Simon: /oh that is actually fairly easy to implement

Farley Scarborough: It's on the full Suzanne Vega video (Ed. about 3/4 of the way through)

Kate Spatula: i guess my point, buridan, is how easy is it for an SL newbie to implement.

otakup0pe Neumann: I don't think it is Kate.

Kate Spatula: the self-discovery of commands and features on SL is another issue

otakup0pe Neumann: easy rather.

buridan Simon: /how big is the newbies community of friends and colleagues?

Pathfinder Linden: i have to run. will this transcript be available on the wiki later? fascinating discussion.

otakup0pe Neumann: That is the key part right there buridan.

Kate Spatula: it will be

otakup0pe Neumann: And whether people have such "products" available for cheap or free.

Pathfinder Linden: excellent. thanks! take care folks

Farley Scarborough: Bye path

Austn Soyer: bye Pathfinder

Bryan Mnemonic: gotta run gang...rl calling me too...

Gus Plisskin: I must go as well

otakup0pe Neumann: bye pathfinder, bryan

Farley Scarborough: Later Bry

Bryan Mnemonic: bye

Kate Spatula: thankes everyone hwo came... we can keep discussing as long as someone's here

otakup0pe Neumann: I will stay a bit.

Painter Maxwell: Uh, hi all.

Kate Spatula notes typing on two jeyboards at once doesn't work too well

otakup0pe Neumann: I am curious as to peoples thoughts on the metadata issues that we were talking about earlier

Austn Soyer: great discussion i have to go also

buridan Simon: /metadata is always a social and organizational issue first

otakup0pe Neumann: My company is still in the planning stages on that project, but we see it as qutie neccesary to high quality educational experiences in SL

buridan Simon: /the technical situation can always be resolved, but the social and organizational rarely can

otakup0pe Neumann: it is buridan

otakup0pe Neumann: Heh. I like how you say that, it's the truth though

Janor Slichter: thanks, everyone, I need to get going, too

buridan Simon: /of course... some metadata is really really hard... for instance these pictures on the walls... how do you account for when lenin's picture was taken vs when that image was made vs... any of the tens of thousands of other dates involved

otakup0pe Neumann: Yeah i'm not saying it's easy

otakup0pe Neumann: frankly i just want to figure out the system, let others worry about the content.

Kate Spatula: true... and the chat noir picture... do you say black cat

otakup0pe Neumann: I've always been of that opinion though./... I am not a designer.

Kate Spatula: bah... design is where the real challenge is

otakup0pe Neumann: Yeah I know :/

otakup0pe Neumann: hence the social issues that buridan mentioned

Painter Maxwell: Since there is no right moment to introduce myself, I am a professor of visual artrs and a practicing exhibiting artist and am happy to contribute to these questions in any way i can.

Farley Scarborough: Audio description is a demanding profession, and an art.

otakup0pe Neumann: heh good point painter.

Kate Spatula: heck, just being a reader for audio recording is a challange and an art

Farley Scarborough: Hi Painter. Welcome

Painter Maxwell: ty farely

otakup0pe Neumann: I totally didn't introduce myself either.

Kate Spatula: well, you're the pope of the otaku, right?

Farley Scarborough: lol

otakup0pe Neumann: I teach technical topics and am director/vp of an elearning firm based on the east coast of canada. a couple of subsidiaries scattered around the continent in various places

otakup0pe Neumann: hehe kate

otakup0pe Neumann: i got this name before i realized how much potential SL had for business

otakup0pe Neumann: and by then i was stuck with it

otakup0pe Neumann: i'm the_p0pe / otakup0pe on irc / livejournal. that sort of thing

Kate Spatula criticizes her stupid need for symmetry in life

otakup0pe Neumann: hehe

Farley Scarborough: I won't take it personally, kate.

otakup0pe Neumann: neither will i !

otakup0pe Neumann: oh wait i get it

otakup0pe Neumann: oh wow lag.

Kate Spatula: for me, i think one of the larger open questions is how do people with disabilities view SL... both in terms of its usability and its potential

Farley Scarborough: There's a slogan among disability rights advocates: "Nothing about us without us."

Kate Spatula: yep... i live by slogans like that

Kate Spatula: person-first, abilities second

Painter Maxwell: Then they should be at this meeting.

otakup0pe Neumann: I certainly agree with that.

otakup0pe Neumann: Both those statements.

Krisjohn Twin: For me, a larger question is how do people who barely know how to turn on a PC cope with SL at all? I've got plenty of able-bodied staff that have no chance coping with this environment.

otakup0pe Neumann: very good point.

otakup0pe Neumann: and you know, orientation island. but i'm not going there right now.